Relational values and empathy are closely connected: A study of residents of Vermont's Winooski River watershed

. Relational values are emerging as an important aspect of ecosystem valuation scholarship and practice. Yet, relatively few empirical examples of their expression exist in the literature. In addition, many characteristics of relational values suggest that they may interact with the quality of empathy, but scholars have not explored that interaction. To address both of these gaps, we designed a semi-structured interview protocol to explore relational values among residents of a large (~28,000 ha) watershed in Vermont, United States of America. We used thematic analysis to explore expressions of relational values and how they may relate to empathy. We discuss how relational values interact with empathy and perspective-taking, as the latter two concepts are theorized in social psychology. In our study, every reference (discrete codable expression) of empathy among our participants co-occurred with a relational-values reference. Conversely, 21% of relational-values references co-occurred with empathy. These results support our proposition that the two concepts are closely related, and we thus argue that there is strong reason to consider empathy as a relational value. We conclude by discussing possible implications of the interaction between relational values and empathy for research and practice, notably their promise for informing the global transformative changes regarding sustainable human–nature relationships called for by the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services.


INTRODUCTION
Both direct and indirect drivers of biodiversity loss and climate change have accelerated over the past 50 years, and goals for "conserving and sustainably using nature" will not be met if current trajectories of production and consumption of resources are followed (IPBES 2019: 772). The 2019 Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services (IPBES) Global Assessment that details these findings concludes that catastrophic ecosystem collapse can only be avoided through "transformative changes across economic, social, political, and technological factors" (IPBES 2019: 772). Embracing relational conceptions of a good life and promoting latent proenvironmental relational values were identified as two important leverage points in these transformations (Chan et al. 2020). In a largely separate line of research, scholars have explored the role empathy may play in sustainability; work from multiple disciplines suggests that empathy may be an influential force in moving toward sustainability. Toward this end, we explored the intersection of two concepts that hold promise for informing societal transformations around sustainable human-nature relationships, and that have not yet been linked in academia: empathy and relational values.

Empathy and sustainability
Empathy, which can be defined as an "other-oriented emotional response congruent with the perceived welfare of another individual" (Batson et al. 2002), is related to prosocial and helping behavior among humans (Batson et al. 2002, Williams et al. 2014, FeldmanHall et al. 2015. Perspective-taking, which involves attempting to perceive the experience of another from their point of view, is a widely used technique for inducing empathy between humans, and experimental trials reliably show that perspectivetaking positively impacts empathy and prosocial and helping behaviors (Batson et al. 1995, 2002, Williams et al. 2014, FeldmanHall et al. 2015. Consistent with research on perspective-taking and empathy among humans, taking the perspective of the environment or components of the environment, like plants and animals, also leads to an empathic response (Schultz 2000, Sevillano et al. 2007, Ahn et al. 2016). Some of this environmentally focused research has explored connections between perspective-taking of environmental entities, empathy, and pro-environmental behavior, and finds them to be correlated (Berenguer 2007, Swim andBloodhart 2015). Brown et al. (2019) synthesize recent advances in environmental psychology, sociology, and philosophy and propose an empathysustainability hypothesis: "empathy -through processes of perspective-taking and emotional connection -is a prerequisite for sustainable actions with the biosphere" (p. 11). They argue that empathy, for both other people and the rest of nature, is not only a potential avenue to achieve pro-environmental behaviors, but a necessity. They suggest that empathy, through perspectivetaking, may be an under-utilized tool for increasing the motivation to protect the environment, build trust and understanding between communities, and increase the success of collaboration among potential allies (Brown et al. 2019). They conclude with a call to better account for how environmental policy affects people's sense of place and identity, and, therefore, how it affects the well-being of "who or what they feel empathy toward" (Brown et al. 2019). We suspect that integrating understandings of empathy and relational values may offer avenues to respond to their call and incorporate environmental empathy into environmental policy (specifically, environmental valuation). This may strengthen the potential of both concepts to improve sustainability and well-being outcomes.
Like instrumental values, relational values can involve tangible and intangible benefits to people. A key difference is that, in practice, the qualities and components of nature associated with instrumental values are often treated as substitutable. One prominent manifestation of this substitutability is that these aspects of nature are sometimes represented in monetary terms and are thus reduced to fungible units of economic exchange. The qualities and components of nature associated with relational values, however, often cannot be substituted (Himes and Muraca 2018). The meaning of this is easy to see when considering relational values associated with people. One could not, for instance, substitute one's best friend with another human of similar disposition without changing the value derived from that relationship. The friend is non-substitutable, because the primary value associated with that friend is relational (not instrumental).
Recent years have seen a rapid increase in studies of relational values; we provide a few examples. Much of this work describes RVs in diverse contexts, and it is based on diverse forms of data (quantitative, qualitative, mixed; from original data collection and existing sources). Klain et al. (2017), for instance, collect quantitative data on relational values from Costa Rican farmers, tourists in Costa Rica, and U.S. residents. They find that RVs resonate broadly with each group of people and use factor analysis to show that relational values constitute an internally coherent framework. Kleespies and Dierkes (2020) surveyed German university students to explore statistical characteristics of the Klain et al. (2017) survey instrument and found support for convergent and discriminant validity of RVs as a construct. Saito et al. (2021) used a different survey instrument to study differences in values (some of which are relational values) toward local nature and nature in general in Greater Tokyo and found RVs to be present among a broad age range. Calcagni et al. (2019) demonstrate that social media data can reveal relational values. Gould et al. (2019) explore relational values in written accounts of Hawaiian culture and worldview and find that many core Hawaiian principles align strongly with relational values.
Other research explores the role relational values could play in transformative change toward sustainability. Uehara et al. (2020) demonstrate that relational values such as stewardship are important aspects of Japanese satoumi management systems and use results of semi-structured interviews with students to demonstrate that ocean literacy programs cultivate relational values and willingness to protect nature. Admiraal et al. (2017) and van den Born et al. (2018) find that eudaimonic values and other relational values are a key motivational component of people who are highly committed to action for nature across several European countries. Mould et al. (2020) find that relational values often explain landholders' river-management practices in southern Australia; specifically, relational values often motivate sustainability-supportive management. Chapman et al. (2019) find that lack of participation in a conservation incentive program in the northwestern United States is often driven by program conditions that appear to threaten relational values; they suggest ways that accommodating RVs could lead to greater program participation without compromising ecological integrity.
Results such as these demonstrate the importance of relational values. However, most of the previously noted studies assess participants' agreement with, or ranking of, statements of relational values rather than analyzing relational values as articulated by the participants. As of yet, rich, nuanced examples of how relational values are expressed and what that means for the relational-values concept are still relatively uncommon. Though Mould et al. (2020) and Chapman et al. (2019) provide examples of in-depth analyses of values articulated by participants, both orient their analyses toward management implications rather than core aspects of relational values.

Research questions
We responded to the gaps identified previously via an interviewbased exploration of empathy and relational values. Our research questions are: This study's central strategy was to ask people involved with nature-based passions and/or careers to take the interviewer to places within the watershed of particular personal importance, and then ask them questions about their relationship to that place and its meaning to them. By conducting our interviews while walking "in the field," we hoped to put participants in contact with aspects of nature that they find meaningful, and that this contact would spark contextual memories and emotions, as well as facilitate more effective conversation and inquiry. Walking interviews such as these have been used in Cultural Ecosystem Services (CES) and other social-science research and are suggested to be useful for producing preliminary qualitative data that aid further assessment, prompting responses that researchers might not find using more conventional (i.e., stationary) techniques (Anderson 2004, Teff-Seker andOrenstein 2019).

Participant selection
After receiving ethical approval from the University of Vermont's Institutional Review Board, we used purposive selection to assemble a participant group of 16 watershed residents with a diversity of relationships with the landscape. Specifically, we sought participation from farmers, natural-resource professionals, hunters, foresters, business owners, teachers, members of the locally Indigenous Abenaki communities, and lay-members of conservation groups. We attended to gender diversity in selection, aiming for roughly equal representation of women and men. Because the purpose of our study was exploratory, we stopped looking for new participants after securing participation from at least one person from each category of relationship listed previously. The results of our analysis confirm this sample as appropriate for our study, as no single interview added notably unique content to our findings, which suggests data saturationi.e., our results would likely not fundamentally change with the addition of further interviews (Saunders et al. 2018).
The first author contacted local conservation groups, foresters, and representatives of two Abenaki (i.e., local Indigenous) communities via email and asked if they would be willing to invite some of their members and contacts to participate in a placebased interview focused on understanding different relationships and values associated with biodiversity, the natural world, and conserved land. Some participants were recommended by name, while others responded voluntarily to group emails. Potential participants were informed that the interview would take place on the participant's property or another personally meaningful landscape, and the participants would be asked to walk with the interviewer to natural places of particular importance to the participant.
We conducted 14 interviews with individuals and one interview with a couple. The 15 interviews took place between June and October of 2019. Demographic information was requested from all participants. Nine of the participants identified as male, and seven as female. Two participants identified as Abenaki and the others as white/Caucasian; our participant group thus largely reflects the racial makeup of the state of Vermont, which is 93% white. All participants were adults, and all but one were over 40. Twelve of the 15 households represented (80%) were homeowners, which is higher than the 2019 Vermont homeownership rate of 71% (Mateyka and Mazur 2021). All participants shared a high level of willingness to engage with a one-to four-hour environmental social-science research project. As such, the results from this study are likely not representative of a larger population. They represent the views of people particularly willing to talk about their local place. Our results and analysis might best be viewed as exploratory articulations of nascent theoretical concepts and connections, derived from conversations with people near one end of a spectrum of engagement with, and care about, nature (Yin 2014).

Interview protocol
The interview protocol followed a semi-structured interview design and included 29 open-ended questions about participants' relationships and values associated with biodiversity, the natural world, and conserved land. We developed the interview protocol using three primary sources of inspiration: the academic literature on relational values and empathy, as described in the introduction, and two question sets created by Vermont natural-resource practitioners to understand communities' and individuals' placebased relationships and values (described in Appendix 1) (Sopher 2019).
We began each interview by asking participants six general questions about themselves. Next, we asked participants 17 questions about their relationship to the land, conservation, and biodiversity in general. Next, we asked participants to take the interviewer to one or more places of particular meaning or interest to the participant. At each location, we asked six questions. After we finished visiting places of interest, we asked participants seven questions reflecting on the land as a whole. We designed the final question in the interview to prompt nature-oriented perspectivetaking in order to induce -and thus more explicitly exploreempathy with nature. At the end of the interview, we gave participants the opportunity to answer a few more optional questions about a local conservation plan, and most declined (Appendix 2, for full interview protocol). Table 1. Necessary criteria for coding a passage as an expression of relational values. Here we define relational values as "preferences, principles, and virtues about human-nature relationships" : A1).
Object-oriented "RVs can take the form of a held value as applied to a thing or things (e.g., equality with other species; solidarity towards a particular fox; responsibility toward living nature)" (Chan et al. 2018: A4).

Relational in content
Relational values must be relational in content (as opposed to relational in process), meaning the relationship itself matters, not just as a means to an end (K. M. Chan et al. 2018, Himes & Muraca 2018).

Non-substitutable
Relational values involve objects of value that are at least partly non-substitutable . Knippenberg et al. (2018) describes this non-substitutable quality of relational values as when nature, or a specific aspect of nature, is constitutive (integral) to a relational whole (made up of people, nature, and their relationship) that is valued intrinsically, like a flourishing life (nature-inclusive eudaimonia), partnership (Knippenberg et al. 2018), or a sense of identity (James 2016). To judge this criteria while coding we asked, "Could the quality of value derived with nature remain the same if the relevant aspect of nature were substituted with anything else, including another similar natural feature?"

Data analysis
We transcribed the interviews verbatim, then coded them using the qualitative software NVivo 12. We then used counts of each code and the open-source software R to produce figures. Consistent with our qualitative data analysis approach, we report numerical data in our results to give precision to our descriptions but make no claims of statistical significance or population representation (Maxwell 2010). To strike a balance between providing as much detail as possible and easing readability, we have removed some of the pauses and stutters in the quotations reported in the results and provided these quotations verbatim in Appendices 3 and 4 (Oliver et al. 2005).
To address the difference between what a person communicates and how we have organized these communications, we differentiate between the term "expression," which we use to describe what participants said, and the term "reference," which we use (following NVivo software) to describe a coded expression of relevant themes. Next, we describe the process of coding in greater detail.
We coded the interviews using a three-step process. For Step One, the two authors jointly designed a first-draft codebook that included definitions of RV in general (Table 1), and empathy for nature (Table 2), along with ten RV themes found in the literature (Table 2). Using this codebook, EJH analyzed all transcripts and coded every discrete instance of relational values and/or empathy, and created a "reference" in NVivo. Coding decisions tended strongly toward inclusion: If there was doubt as to inclusion in a given theme, EJH coded the statement to that theme (this inclusive approach was important given our coding process; Step Two). During Step One, we iteratively modified the codebook; new RV themes were added as patterns emerged, and others were adjusted and reconfigured. For example, the RV theme "friendship" was created after descriptions of nature as a friend arose in multiple interviews. In Step Two, RKG reviewed a random selection of references in all coding themes and noted areas of disagreement (i.e., statements coded to a theme that RKG did not agree should be coded to that theme) and areas of agreement (i.e., RKG agreed with the coding). The two authors then used this sample of the data to refine the coding, add and remove themes, and standardize the codebook together. In Step Three, EJH used the updated codebook to refine the coding by re-analyzing all text coded as either empathy or relational values during Step One. Selected text captured the essential components for each coded theme while being as short as possible. During this final coding step, both authors consulted on passages that were borderline, confusing, or otherwise difficult to code. The final codebook is depicted in Table 2.

Public sharing of interview content
This research was conducted as part of a collaboration with the Vermont Alliance for Half-Earth (VAFHE), a volunteer nongovernmental organization focused on biodiversity conservation. VAFHE had no influence on interviewee selection, research design, interview guide development, data analysis, or the writing of this manuscript, but they did suggest the idea of interviewing residents of the watershed and sharing their stories with the public. We agreed with this public sharing and created outreach material in the form of ESRI Storymaps and a related book (published by VAFHE and other NGO partners) that highlight six interviews (among other content). After each interview, we asked the participant if they would like to have segments of their interview published as part of the outreach materials affiliated with VAFHE; we included only those who agreed, and these participants reviewed the materials before they were made public. Appendix 5 provides further details.

Expressions of relational values and three emergent qualities
From the 15 interviews conducted, we coded 667 discrete expressions of relational values, which often contained multiple overlapping references to relational values themes (1003 total RV theme references). Figure 1 depicts the total number of references for each RV theme across all interviews, along with the number of participants with references for each theme. In general, within our participant group, RV themes were expressed proportionally such that themes that were expressed by more people were also expressed more frequently in total. This numerical summary is useful for giving overall impressions of the data, such as how many people expressed each theme, and how many times each theme was expressed in total. For example, "stewardship (care for)" and "care about" were coded for every participant and were also the most coded themes overall. Other themes were not coded frequently nor coded in many interviews but still represent RVs of importance. The following quote, from a participant who grows produce for his restaurant, demonstrates this pattern for the RV theme "friendship"; though we used this code infrequently, it clearly encompasses a rich and important type of value: https://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol27/iss3/art19/ We organized the rest of our findings as related to our first research question into two sections. First, we demonstrated how the expression of RVs in our sample was highly variable between participants. Second, we distilled three overarching messages that emerged inductively from the data and that incorporate and holistically encompass many of the more specific types of RV for which we coded (i.e., that are listed in Table 2).

Expression of RVs is highly variable person-to-person
Though Figure 1 shows that RV themes were generally distributed proportionally across the interviews, the distribution of expressed RV themes within each interview ( Figure 2) reveals that expression of RV themes among the participants was highly variable and individually unique. Many participants frequently expressed codes that were infrequently expressed on average, as well as the opposite. In the following paragraphs we provide multiple quotes and their context from one interview that exemplifies this result.
Though "heritage" was a relatively infrequently discussed RV theme among all participants (mentioned 50 times across nine interviews), for the participant in Interview 12 "heritage" was the most commonly expressed theme. This participant grew up near the mouth of the Winooski River, which is where she chose to locate the interview. She spoke of her parents raising her in her Abenaki heritage, and how she grew up playing with her sisters in the meadows and forests nearby. While walking through the fields and forests of her childhood neighborhood, she described the constitutive value of those places to her sense of identity: "So I think I wouldn't have a sense of myself if I didn't have this place. Does that make sense?" Part of the interview took place next to a field where as a child she would pick medicinal plants for her mother, which was an important connection to both her mother and her Abenaki heritage. As she grew older she lost her mother and struggled to hold onto her heritage; the field was also developed into a subdivision. She explained the impact of the loss of the field and what it represents for her and her children:

Empirical data on three common qualities of relational values
From our interviews we identified three common qualities of relational values. Next, we briefly describe these qualities and offer an exemplary quote for each. Quotes that exemplify each coded RV theme can be found in Appendix 3.
The first common quality is that relational values can involve complex layering of different relationships with nature. The following quote comes from a participant who spends much of his free time restoring a wetland in what used to be part of his lawn. During the beginning of this interview, the participant described how he is restoring his yard, and how he derives value through this stewardship relationship and the connection he has built with the land. In the following quote, he pivots and explains how his personal relationship with the land is intertwined with the constitutive aspect the land plays in his connection with his daughter, as well as the role it plays in his preparation for the good future of his daughter and soon-to-be-born child:  Fig. 2. Proportional representation of RV themes and empathy for all of the interviews together (A) and within each interview (B-P). Proportions for (A) were calculated by dividing the number of references for each theme in the dataset by the total number of references for all themes in the dataset. Proportions for B-P were calculated by dividing the number of references for each theme within that interview by the total number of references for all themes within the same interview.
And, um, the more there is to know. And

Empathy and relational values Close alignment between empathy and relational values
To address our second research question, we explored interactions between empathy and relational values. In the previous examples, we intentionally chose passages in which we did not also code for empathy (for simplicity). Yet empathy was commonly expressed throughout the interviews, and it always coincided with expressions of relational values, i.e., 100% of empathy references were also coded as RV. Conversely, 21% of all RV references coincided with coded empathy (Table 3). As described earlier, empathy involves an emotional response congruent with the perceived welfare of another (Batson et al. 2002). In our interviews, these emotional responses reliably revealed a value held by, or value experienced by, the person regarding their relationship with nature. Next, we provide two examples of the interaction between empathy and relational values.
The first example comes from a wildlife biologist who was explaining her relationship with the bobcats that live in her study area: The love she expresses is a clear indication of the RV theme "care about," but so is the shame she feels for her intrusion into their private kit-rearing den site. This statement simultaneously depicts empathy, because her shame is an emotional response caused by her infringement upon her perception of the bobcats' welfare.
A second example of the interaction of RVs and empathy comes from a participant who grew up in the headwaters of the Winooski River, where we waded around the river and looked for insects and birds like he did as a child: One of the most valued things that I did as a child, this was my playground. Here, the participant explains how his relationship with nature in this place was immensely important to him as a child, and how this relationship built in him values that shape his identity and actions today. This is an example of empathy that isn't as explicitly expressed as in the first example but still warrants coding. Empathy is defined as an emotional response congruent with the perceived welfare of another (Batson et al. 2002). This participant's statement of affection for, and desire to not harm, the river, constitutes an emotional response that is congruent with his perception of the river's welfare. Appendix 4 provides additional examples of the co-occurrence of RVs and empathy.

Perspective-taking, empathy, and relational values
To more directly explore the effect of inducing perspective-taking on empathy and relational values, we asked participants a closing question: "If the land could talk, what do you think it would say?" This question yielded a diversity of rich responses, which often differed from responses to other questions. One participant, a retired agricultural specialist who spends much of his time caretaking his ancestral family farmland, replied as follows: The perspective-taking question caught many participants offguard but, as shown previously, also often prompted insightful instances of introspection and sharing. When we asked this participant to take the perspective of the land, she relayed lessons that nature has to teach us, if we would only bring more listening into our relationship with nature. Further examples of responses to this question can be found in Appendix 6.
Though only 8 out of 15 interviews included codable expressions of empathy in their response to this perspective-taking question, the prevalence of empathy was greater in response to this question compared to the rest of the interview questions ( Figure 3).

DISCUSSION
Our results are organized into two lines of inquiry: an exploration of the abundant expressions of RVs in our interviews, and alignment between empathy and relational values. In our exploration of RVs, we provided an approach for organizing expressions of RVs into themes in order to help illustrate patterns. One outcome of organizing expressions of RVs into themes is the demonstration of patterns of variability in RV expression among participants. We also distilled three overarching qualities of RVs in our data and provided quotes that exemplify each. Next, we showed the close alignment between empathy and relational values in our interviews, with around 20% of RV references coinciding with empathy, and 100% of empathy references cocoded as RV. When we attempted to induce empathy in our participants by asking them to take the perspective of the land, all of our interviews included expressions of RV in their responses, and about half of the responses also included empathy. Next, we discuss each of these results, then comment on the role of RVs and empathy in creating more sustainable futures.

Expressions of relational values
Distilling interviews into themes, and themes into counts, progressively removes the contextual meaning of relational values present at the time of expression. Yet organizing expressed relational values into thematic codes can help visualize broader patterns within an interview, or within a population. In our data, for example, "stewardship (care for)" and "care about" were expressed by every participant and were also the most expressed themes overall. Yet numerical summaries must be interpreted with caution (Maxwell 2010). Frequency of expression is not equivalent to importance of a value, because people can have difficulty expressing some of their deeply held beliefs (Gould and Schultz 2021) or may filter their responses according to their perception of social acceptability (Fisher 1993).
Yet another complication with numerical analysis is that some themes are discussed more frequently because interview questions more directly prompted their expression; this issue of "leading" interviewees is a fundamental concern and tension in socialscience research (e.g., Maxwell 2012). Stewardship, the most prevalent theme in our data, provides the most obvious example. One question that we asked at every site we visited with participants was "Why did you choose to manage this place as you have?" This question often elicited the description of acts of stewardship and their importance to the participant. Another question we asked was "Thinking about your [or the] whole property, what are some of the things you love about this place?" This question was designed to signal to participants that it was acceptable to include emotions in their responses, but it also can be seen as quite leading. It explicitly asks participants for expressions of love, which we considered to be an aspect of the RV theme "care about." In other words, our two most prevalent RV themes were almost directly addressed in the interview questions. The only other RV theme that was similarly addressed in an interview question was 'social bonds' (with the question "how might this land be important to other people?"). Social bonds was the fourth most prevalent theme (empathy was the third-most coded theme, and empathy was intentionally prompted by an interview question). Thus, especially for the four themes that our questions addressed more directly (stewardship, care for, empathy, and social bonds), the prevalence of mentions is far less important than the nuances and details of peoples' responses (Maxwell 2010).
Our interview questions, though they sometimes referred to wellknown RVs (either implicitly or explicitly), also allowed for wideranging responses from which previously undiscussed RV themes emerged. As one example, the more modest amount of expressions of "friendship" that we coded all arose unprompted from more open-ended questions. And though expressed relatively infrequently, this friendship was important to many participants.
Coding expressions of RVs into themes also allowed us to visualize patterns of variability among our interviews. For example, for the participant in Interview 12, "heritage" was the most commonly expressed RV theme, though it wasn't a significant part of most other interviews. Of note, is that the participant in interview 12 is Abenaki and, therefore, part of a minority community in Vermont. This speaks to the role of RVs in daylighting values that are crucial to certain people or groups of people, particularly those who are non-dominant (Pascual et al. 2017, Himes and Muraca 2018. It also underscores the importance of seeking diverse participation in  We also identified and provided examples of three common qualities of RVs. The first quality is that RVs can involve complex layering of different relationships with nature. In our example, a participant's restoration of a wetland in his yard is an opportunity to engage in stewardship, as well as connect with his children and provide a nourishing environment in which they can grow up. This quality is connected to the "bundling" of nonmaterial values seen in CES literature (e.g., Gould et al. 2015), and exemplifies how a relational values framework can shift the focus of value accounting toward understanding the complex interactions that create a larger story of meaning for those involved (Himes and Muraca 2018).
The second quality we identified is that RVs can involve important sources of personal meaning. This is an articulation of the eudaimonic quality of many RVs (Pascual et al. 2017, Knippenberg et al. 2018. Eudaimonia characterized expressions of RVs throughout our interviews, but in the example we provide, the participant articulates the link between relationship and personal meaning with exceptional clarity, explaining how the love he has for his land and his stewardship of the land are intertwined, and how this relationship adds to the richness of his life. Here, along with the earlier quote displaying the RV theme 'friendship,' we see It is not always possible, however, for people to verbally express the importance of their relationships with nature. This relates to the third overarching quality we identified: RVs can be difficult to articulate, even as participants identify these values as extremely important to them (Himes and Muraca 2018). When asked to describe her relationship to the land she lives on, the participant in this example responded by saying it was "too important to talk about!" Thus for researchers attempting to elicit and categorize RVs, paying attention to what is said may be as important as paying attention to what is extremely difficult to say or cannot be said due to a quality of ineffability. Researchers can attempt to facilitate articulation of these values in various ways (Gould and Schultz 2021); our perspective-taking question provides one example.

Close alignment between empathy and relational values
It is well documented that people can have empathic responses to non-human beings and even whole landscapes (Schultz 2000, Walker and Chapman 2003, Sevillano et al. 2007). Our results are consistent with these findings; our participants expressed empathy for animals, plants, rivers, and ecosystems.
An expression of empathy reveals an emotional preference for the welfare of another (Batson et al. 2002). In our interviews, expressions of empathy always coincided with an expression of RVs. Conversely, about 20% of RV references in our interviews coincided with coded empathy. Though perspective-taking is a commonly used technique for inducing empathy, research has not (to our knowledge) explored whether perspective-taking can https://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol27/iss3/art19/ induce or elicit relational values. When we attempted to induce empathy by asking participants to take the perspective of the land ("if the land could talk, what do you think it would say?"), every response included expressions of RV. This suggests that perspective-taking may play a role in evoking, producing, and/or internalizing RVs. This finding could have implications for both research and practice. It could aid efforts to understand relational values in environmental decision-making and research by offering a novel way to help people discuss these values, especially if techniques are careful to not lead respondents into certain types of answers. It could also aid practical efforts to foster latent values (Chan et al. 2020, leverage point 3) by offering people a novel way to reflect on their values.
Our results clearly suggest a close relationship between empathy and RVs. Part of this relationship could be that experiences or expressions of empathy toward nature may reveal or include relational values. Interpreted another way, it may be that empathy is a significant component of some RVs, or, as we will argue, it may be that empathy is itself a relational value. Relational values are, again, "preferences, principles, and virtues about humannature relationships," (Chan et al. 2018: A1). Next, we describe how empathy could be considered a preference or a virtue.
Schultz (2000) lays the groundwork for understanding empathy as a preference. According to Value-Belief-Norm theory, concern is based on a perceived threat to a valued object, which could be the self, other people, or nature (Stern and Dietz 1994). Schultz argues that this value is dependent on valuing our relationship with the object; i.e., nature, in the case of environmental concern (Schultz 2000). Schultz recognizes that environmental concern resonates strongly with the concept of empathy, and proposes that they are associated. If we consider empathy for nature as intertwined with concern for nature, empathy can be seen as (at least in part) dependent on being in a valued relationship with nature. It reveals a preference for the well-being of a constitutive component (i.e., nature) of that valued relationship.
In an almost entirely separate literature, many scholars argue that empathy is a virtue and that it is necessary for moral functioning (Simmons 2014, Peterson 2017. It is worth noting that empathy is a vigorously debated concept, with as many as 43 distinct definitions, and plenty of philosophers who argue that empathy is not a virtue (Battaly 2011, Cuff et al. 2016, Clark et al. 2019. One salient aspect of the "is empathy a virtue?" debate relates closely to the conceptual core of relational values (Coplan and Goldie 2011). Arguments against empathy as a virtue claim that empathy may result in action that is too context-specific (e.g., too oriented toward one individual). This context-specific action may not, the empathy-is-not-a-virtue camp argues, be what is best for society, which means empathy can be societally detrimental. One philosopher encapsulates this argument as "tugs of empathy must be resisted so that moral principles may be served" (Peterson 2017, p. 232, summarizing Bloom [e.g., 2016 and Prinz [e.g., 2011]). This argument relates closely to the conception of morality as abstract and decontextualized (the canonized Western philosophical understanding; e.g., Kant 1797) versus as relational and contextualized (a feminist understanding; e.g., Gilligan 1993). One fundamental aspect of the relational values concept is that values are intertwined with relationships, and thus are often context-dependent (e.g., Muraca 2011Muraca , 2016. Considering empathy as a relational value is, therefore, consistent with the relational values scholarly conversation; empathy's contextdependence does not disqualify it as a virtue but instead supports it as a relational virtue. Importantly, the expansive literature about empathy, which involves primarily psychology and philosophy (e.g., Coplan and Goldie 2011), addresses almost exclusively human-human empathy. The strong importance of human-nature empathy in our exploratory analysis of the associations between empathy and relational values suggests an exciting, promising new area of inquiry. We propose that there is strong reason to consider empathy as a relational value and that future research can explore, conceptualize, and test this relationship further.

Transformative change, empathy, and (other?) relational values
The transformative changes that IPBES calls for include not only a global economic transition away from ever-increasing material consumption but also a total overall reduction in material consumption (IPBES 2019). To make this transition both effective and equitable, the world's richest people will have to consume less, while the poorest among us should be able to consume more (Wiedmann et al. 2020).
The required reduction in consumption is often spoken about as a dwindling standard of living, but relational values may point to a path where global resource consumption dwindles but quality of life not only stays constant, but increases (Muraca 2016, Chan et al. 2016, IPBES 2019. In line with Chan et al.'s (2020) first leverage point, embracing diverse visions of a good life, the lost value associated with a global reduction of material consumption could be partially replaced through the intentional promotion of relational values among humans and between people and nature. In other words, what if those of us who have our basic needs met relied more on cultivating fulfilling relationships to provide ourselves with a good life, rather than on luxury consumption? Quantitative research has shown that perspective-taking and empathy have been shown to positively affect pro-environmental attitudes and behaviors (Berenguer 2007, Swim andBloodhart 2015), and our results suggest that they may also be able to promote expression of relational values. This in turn, suggests that perspective-taking and empathy may be important tools in both embracing diverse visions of a good life (Chan et al. 2020: leverage point 1) and in promoting latent pro-environmental relational values (Chan et al. 2020: leverage point 3).

CONCLUSION
Qualitative analysis of interviews using a relational-values framework can reveal important, non-substitutable sources of meaning, well-being, and emotional connection that are derived through relationships with nature. Further, our results suggest close connections between empathy and relational values, and perspective-taking may play a role in evoking, producing, and internalizing relational values. We also argue that there is strong reason to consider empathy as a relational value. Relational values, perspective-taking, and empathy may all be powerful (and interrelated) concepts and tools in increasing the equitability and desirability for environmental decision-making and conservation outcomes; they may offer a path toward increasing human wellbeing while decreasing the consumption of resource-intensive goods and services that fuel the global trajectory toward further environmental crises. https://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol27/iss3/art19/  The Community Forum Method involves six questions: • What do you love about where you live?
• What is your vision for its future?
• What do you see as threats to that vision?
• What do you see as solutions?
• Who would you need to be to fulfill your vision?
• What is one action you are willing to commit to fulfill that vision? So, I'm hoping that you'll take me to some of the places on your property that are particularly meaningful or interesting to you, whatever the reason might be.
I'm especially interested in natural areas on the property that -you see as ecologically important. Or maybe, -places that you manage in some way.
-If you hunt, or fish, or go bird watching, maybe we could visit one of your favorite spots.
-Or maybe you've got a place that you treasure for some other reason.
Really, whatever is important to you -I'd love to go there! We can go to as many or few places as you would like, but two or three stops would be totally fine. Why don't we take a five minute break, and then head off. Great, well thank you so much again, take care. And like do we leave that one, leave it for woodpeckers, and it'll be good in 10 years or 20 years, or do we cut it for firewood? This one we'll probably cut for firewood because, you know, there's one, there's some others, there's another one that will be ready soon. So we try to leave a bunch of snags around, but that one's ours for firewood [chuckle]. balance And you can see, this is a good example of that three dimensional structure of the landscape, and these big broken tree that came down. And that, for decades and decades, if a tree like fell on this land it would be removed. And… that's not wrong from the farm's point of view, but, it's not as good from the wildlife's point of view. And so, what we're trying to do here is to say, well, what's, where's the balance? bequest I don't, I don't ever want to move again, you know, it's, like, nice to be tied to it. And then sharing it with the little one, or soon-to-be two, but, you know and seeing what they're interested in and not. And having her just grow up with like a wetland next to her house, like how cool is that? I mean maybe she'll be like, "ugh, Dad, you and your weird wetland," but maybe she'll be like, "yeah we had a wetland, and like, you know, it's not some stinky thing, it's really cool. And, you know, we did this and did that." Well I think that one of the most important things that we can achieve in a life is happiness, and that comes from Democrates, one of the Ancient Greeks. And a hundred years after Democrates came to that point of view Plato was exploring it and said well if that is true how do we get to happiness. And his conclusion was that we get to happiness through virtue. And that we get to virtue by simply doing one good thing after another, and that after a while we will create a string of good things that will have more value than any string of pearls or chain of gold we might ever hold. And so, the happiness that is one of my passions is not a hedonistic happiness, but it is a deeper sense of peace with the world and with myself. Interviewer: And that's come from pursuing those, that string of good actions? Participant: Yes, yeah, yeah. And so, in that way, the part of the work of the life is to try to do things that are meaningful, and largely that has been about how do we create meaningful food? How do we create food that is a joy to eat but is also responsible to the health and well-being of the people who eat it, and is responsible to the community, and responsible to our environment. eudaimonia

Appendix 3. Examples of each relational values theme coded in our study
There's a reason why you own land, it's not because you want to make a lot of money. It's not a money maker, you just, it's part of your happiness. It's a big part of the happiness in your life. eudaimonia Interviewer: To the degree that you care about them, could you explain to me why? Participant: I just, to me it's almost an impossible question. But I, um, this is sort of a circuitous way, but I used to have a lot of problems with depression. I don't anymore. But always the one thing that could, I realized could make me feel better was the natural world. And also just beauty, which I find mostly in the natural world, whether it was a sunset or a walk or digging in the dirt. And  Protection goes back to it's been in [his] family for so long that he feels a need to honor the family's tradition of keeping the land together in one piece and taking care of it. And that's been kind of an overriding thing for you in your decision making. It's been a responsibility that was handed to you from your parents, and his parent's parents, you know, since his great grandfather, it's uh, yeah, it's a responsibility in that way as well as it's just a responsibility to maintain it, to finance it, to uh, yeah. heritage They criticize me highly because I'll say to them what if you were that tree and then they like see that's my point you're worshiping the tree and I'm like I am not worshiping the tree I am trying to tell you that if you weren't who you were and you were thus and so, do you think you would have any thoughts or feelings about that? Because my heritage says that is a living being. heritage He doesn't unfortunately know the Abenaki words because my father passed away. He would have taught them to him. because I was his plan, and, but he does say thank you. So we still have taught him that the English version of that is that you're thanking that animal for having given its life for you to live and to have, you know. And so he does he does at least say thank you, he, but he doesn't know the Abenaki words. Which is, that's also sad. heritage So that's a little bitty patch of rich woods right there, but it's also Uncle Walter's dump. identity One of the most valued things that I did as a child, this was my playground. All day long, man. This wasn't a study, this wasn't class, this is where I went to get the hell away from bullies. This is where I went to get away from my father who was kind of a jerk. And to, you know, I was safe here, this land, this didn't judge me. Just by spending a lot of time there I started forming this relationship, so now I value this differently, right?...So, when you allow a child to form relationships that are really personal, then that becomes a value system. Why would I want to hurt this? This wasn't the bully? You know? So I have a dear spot for this, and that's probably why I am the way I am. In part. Other organisms on Earth… I guess my relationship is of deep respect. I, I grew up hiking the Sierras, and I was taught every cloud formation, every rock type, every wildflower, every tree, every track, and I think, I didn't appreciate it then, um, but I think that that is what connected me to that place, and just comparing, you know, this place that I feel pretty connected to and Vermont in general, compared to what I grew up with, um I just have a respect of the landscape and everything on it, and I feel strongly that we should do everything we can to conserve what we have. Especially considering climate change and um species populations also decreasing. other Well I think it has so much to do with this, uh, interdependence. This understanding that I cannot be successful without them. And it's, it's a little bit of a one-way street. They can be very successful without me [laughing]. Um, so, I'm in the humbled position in this relationship [haha], which is, which is really sort of turning the world on its head. Because in a lot of ways, um, the human experience has seen itself at the pinnacle at, of, of life on Earth. And, that point of view suggests that we're actually, that it's an upside down pyramid. That, we're, uh, we're sort of at the bottom, we're the least, the irony is that we are simultaneously the least important species and the most influential species. And that's a paradox that I think, um, that we haven't resolved yet. other But, mostly, I mean, right now because my mobility is more limited, I do this walk every day, or almost every day. And um, and it just is a, kind of an emotional, psychological relief to be in the woods. Even though my house is in the woods. I mean it's not the same. And I can't, I can't snowshoe anymore in the winter, so, like when the mud finally subsides it's just, an incredible relief to be able to get back out. partnership And I start to see the lives around me as my partners in this journey. And that, as partners, as a partner with them I have both the responsibility and the opportunity to either be constructive to the lives of others or to be hurtful to the lives of others. Or to simply turn my back on them. partnership And and I feel like the mindset that I'm approaching this place with like is it's going to be mutually beneficial cuz this place also makes me feel amazing all the time and I love it, and it's just a wonderful place to sort of be in partnership with. But I think we can benefit each other. And I wish that everybody who owned forested land like cared about it and thought about it as much as I do about this place. Cuz if they did they'd be there'd be, you know, most of the problems that we have to just go away. responsibility And then something happens and you know, your life adjusts and you fill it up with stuff.
You know, and then, it's amazing, sort of the capacity of the human being to like absorb extra responsibility like this. I think it's made me a better person. In a lot of ways, you know, like having to be responsible for something like this, which is totally not about me. You know? it's cool. I think everybody should do it. The problem is it's expensive. responsibility You want to make sure you're doing that in a good way. Because that has one outcome, you know, that's a lot of responsibility. It's a good one though. [10 second pause] So it's just amazing. You come into these places and I'm just like feel so much like responsibilities also it's like, not that I think that I own them or that yeah that they belong to me or that I'm like smarter than them or better than them in any way but just like responsibility just like take care of all of this. Like all the organisms here. And then, you know looking back and being like man oh man have we like to changed this Earth. You know, it's like a pretty amazing opportunity to get to get to be sort of in charge of one little pretty cool chunk of it. And just try and really take care of it, with the idea that we're not the only thing that matters here, you know? I feel like that's an important like, there are people who are really good land stewards that do a really good job from the perspective of managing it purely for them. You know, managing it purely for humans. And there are people who are who do you know actually treat the forest really well, I think operating from that mindset. But I think there will always something be something lost unless you're also managing for the intrinsic value of all these, the intrinsic value of these systems and the organisms that occupy them. responsibility I'd like to give them, without them feeling shamed, and without them feeling like it's something that they could never do. But we make a list of all the little things that we can do and there are hundreds of things that we can do. And let's choose five, let's try that out for the next week, see how that goes. Come back, report out how, you know, how we did. So having those conversations. Will all kids follow through? No, but most will. Really try something out, and really think about that. Um, the balance is not having like an ominous forecast and having kids get that sense of fear, and we're doing this out of fear, but doing it out of responsibility, and taking initiative and being proactive as opposed to feeling shamed and being reactive. We've got children here who's parents met here, and some of whom even got married here, who were brought here by their parents when they were little munchkins. How does that change our life? It just adds to the fabric of it, they're part of the fabric of our life. One couple wanted to be married on the top of Goose Hill. Another wanted to be married on the flank there where the 540 foot elevation of the sea of Champlain was. Others have asked to be married in the meadow out here. I think that's how important it is to them, but again, that's how important it is to us. That's part of our fabric of us. That's how it's changed our lives. spiritual connection Um… why do I care about other organisms? Cuz I think that every organism is like a story of, you know I mean I can try to explain like spiritual things that I don't even know how to explain, but beyond that, like every organisms is like this unbroken line back to however and whenever life started. It's like this collection of stories, you know, of how it got to be there. And its genes and it's ancestors and it's evolution. And like, you know, if we decide to remove some tiny species that noone seems to care about then it's like that whole story' s gone and we can't get it back. And even if we dug up its genes and cloned it we can't really get it back because you're losing a whole bunch of other...behavioral and habitat and everything else, and its relationship with microorganisms and everything else. So I guess it's, you know, I think it's broader than just one given thing. And like, I guess part of why I try to do with this what I do is this idea that it just builds resiliency, so that these species, these fireflies that are here aren't just something cool for our kid to see, they're also like this amazing story...this amazing thing. And like, if a plant, that maple tells you that… it tells you something really interesting, it tells you that for whatever, I don't think it's a hundred years old, for like the last 80 years a maple can survive there. Because if for one minute it would have been enough to kill a maple it would have been dead. So like, every plant that's been there awhile has this really interesting story, especially when you gather them all together. So… spiritual connection He doesn't unfortunately know the Abenaki words because my father passed away. He would have taught them to him, because that was his plan. But he does say thank you, so we still have taught him that the English version of that is that you're thanking that animal for having given its life for you to live and to have, you know, and so he does he does at least say thank you. He, but he doesn't know the Abenaki words, which is, that's also sad. spiritual connection But that sense of awe, that went away for me for a while. I think that when you get really busy, especially if you go through like, my dad died in a helicopter crash, and I got divorced, and I was super depressed and I'm finally pulling out of that, but that sense of awe can go away as you get older. And I'm realizing that I was really missing that. I don't know if that's just part of the depressed mentality or what but, these places, particularly when it's nice out, you know, it's easier for me, these remind me that everything is ok. You know. But also too to be like, 'oh yeah', just get out of your thinking mind sometimes. Just be like, bleah, what is that? Isn't that weird. It's just off a tree here. Your hands are all sticky. What's that? It's like, oh, this is the universe talking to me. spiritual connection Well, as I said we, we grew up with it. This is crazy [tearing up a little]. Anyway, I grew up with it. Oh, 1797. Bought my brother out. Now I raise christmas trees [sniff, laugh]. So, really enjoy it. It's a good pastime. Getting me out of the house. I get a chance to, ah, some say this is your church. And, it is in a way. I never thought I'd be, be so emotional about it. But being on the property, you know, it makes a difference. That's what it's all about.

stewardship (care for)
This particular site? Um, I have a long history with this particular site. I've been bringing students here for about 20 years. Um, it's the first and the last trip that I do with students. Um, and they come here a couple of times in between during the school year too. I like that this is a rare floodplain forest. I like that this place is ever changing, just because of what the water does. How it really sculpts the land. Um, this place is unique in that we can see bald eagles, and we can see um, rare migratory songbirds in May that use this floodplain as a stopover point. Uh, we've also seen otter and mink and beaver and all kinds of really interesting animal evidence here in, in our trips here as well. So, um, and there's lots of really cool edibles at this site too, so it's just so interesting. Sort of a package deal, in that um, it sort of, I introduce this place in terms of our watershed, but it's a place that we come to to look at wildlife in winter, and migratory birds in spring, and my team has been responsible for getting rid of the vast majority of the knotweed here along this stretch here, all the way to the round church. Over the past, I'd say, fifteen years. We' ve been removing barberry and knotweed here. And recently honeysuckle? stewardship (care for) I'm frustrated with a lot of things about how the world is, or at least how whatever our Colonial, broken, feudal society, whatever you want to call it is, and so like, just trying to both heal something in a very small sense with like this land, which we have, which is only been recent, and then in a more broader sense, i'm really interested in just kind of witnessing, or, um, documenting what's here because even if I can't you know solve certain problems, then I can at least document what was here so that if someone else you know wants to change or fix things after I'm gone, then it'll still be there. stewardship (care for) Oh, a lot of insects are really really cool! Yeah, yeah. I recently um, created multiple pollinator gardens on my own landscape at my own house, and I've had to really develop an appreciation of wasps. Building wasp houses and, you know, plants for wasps, and things like that. That's been a leap for me. So. I think they can do it too. Yeah. stewardship (care for) So, this is a little brook, that, I diverged. I split it. And some of it goes to the, uh, south, and into what I, is a restored wetland that we developed. And we're now naturalizing that. And you can see, this is a good example of that three dimensional structure of the landscape, and these big broken tree that came down. And that, for decades and decades, if a tree like fell on this land it would be removed. And… that's not wrong from the farm's point of view, but, it's not as good from the wildlife's point of view. And so, what we're trying to do here is to say, well, what's, where's the balance? You know, what can I do that would be responsible to the agricultural interests of the farm and its food production values, but also responsible to wildlife. And so this is a wetland that, my guess, was diverted. You know, right now it runs along the edge of this field. And there's a hill right here, with a wooded hill. And, in the reading I've been doing on beaver and the effects of beaver, and beaver dams and ponds, um, parti…, and what the landscape was like before the Europeans came and, uh, trapped them out, largely, is that, little streams like this probably didn't go along the edge of the field. You know, it spread out, and that, this whole farm could have been beaver meadows and beaver ponds, and a series of beaver ponds. And, so, the aquatic conditions were very very different. And the habitat conditions were very different than what we have think of now as normal. And so one of my interests here is, well, can we create more, uh, wetland habitat on the farm, to restore some of what was lost. And so that was the work that was happening there, and it's about allowing this to spread out and, you know, giving it the space that it needs to, to develop as it can. stewardship (care for) Absolutely, um, you know, I have a, the only economically valuable stand of trees I have is an ash, a group of ash trees that, um, you know, maybe they're not ready for timbering for five years or so but they could be taken out now, and I'm not going to take them out for exactly that… you know, because I have um, what's, that beech tree disease? So I have this huge beech tree up by the vernal pool that I have that's maybe a quarter of a mile up that way, that um, I was walking up there with someone from the state when I was working on an Equip Program, and um, and they said whatever you do don't take this tree out because it was perfectly healthy, and all around it were these dying beech trees. And you never know which tree it's going to be, like in terms of the ash borer, yeah. stewardship (care for) You know it's good that we're banning plastic bags but, yeah? Like, I don't, I don't know. It's um, it's the kind of cause I would have been very involved in forty years ago, fifty years ago, and the old lady feels like she's paid her dues in some ways and doesn't have the energy to do much more than little things around the edges. I mean I'm on the conservation commission, I work for, I work for preserving our town forest and helped buy the land that we just bought to increase the size of our town forest. I mean those are, but those are like matchstick things to do, they're not, they're not going to change our carbon footprint very much. But they might help people who use the town forest bring their kids and have their kids care about the land a little more. There's a lot going on there, and, and we don't know half of it. We don't know a tenth of it! It's so complex. The minute you start, you know, you find a bug, and you start figuring out how that bug livs. And it ends up being connected to everything. I didn't understand, when I was just, when I was mostly looking at plants, um, that it all depends on the geology. And if, and how the water works. You know, and how, you know, where the water is. And what the bedrock is like. And how the soils are, and you can't, you know, those things, uh, they make for, and just the fact that it's been woods, except for a very brief period of farming, um, since glaciation it' s been woods, it's, and so there's, there's the ecosystem within ecosystem within ecosystem, and um, connected in ways that we have no idea of. So I think that's just important, a good reason to leave it alone. If you don't know what's going on and it seems to be working you need to let it be. It drives me crazy when people start talking about management [laughter]. stewardship (care for) I mean I think just sort of what I was talking about earlier with you know ultimately biodiversity is not something that has a an economic value. Which is sort of our, you know in our current economic system, is the way that we, for things that are not widely held morals, moral values or ethics in our community, you like, economics is the way that we promote things we like, and get rid of the things we don't like as a as a society, and so because there's not because it's not valued economically, in order to really manage for biodiversity and promote biodiversity you need to do it from a moral, essentially a moral perspective. You just have to you just have to understand why it's important, and like it, and want to do it. And it in some ways forgo economic opportunity in the promotion of biodiversity because the promotion of biodiversity will necessarily, probably entail that you don't manage ecosystems entirely as assets. That you're managing for this other stuff, which is which is not valued. And so that's another really important part of my job is helping people, so talking about internalizing all those other non non commercial values, and essentially fixing that in people as morals you know. And then with those more with those morals or that ethic intact they will then make decisions on their land. You know. And and hopefully be willing to say okay well this isn't the most economically fruitful decision but it's one that is the best decision for me when I internalize all this the other components of this ethic that I felt. So you know until we get like some sort of like public payment for biodiversity process, the promotion of biodiversity will be strictly essentially moral or ethical. general relational satisfaction I don't know if I really have any words that are sort of adequate to describe it. You know a place, like you know the corners and you know the trees and you know the rocks that stick out, and you can kind of picture all of it. But I don't really, you know I do come back to it being kind of scrappy land. You know, things tilted all over. Rocks sticking out. That's kind of the charm of it to me, too. I think that one of the things that's cool about land and being a land owner is that you know this place is super special to [my wife] and me, but you know someone else might come here and say, 'really? This is what you think is so cool?' And it's partly because you grow to know it and appreciate it, and see the things that change on it. general relational satisfaction I think it's more personal than that. In some ways biodiversity is something I know we need, and it's a professional sort of charge, and this place, I mean I think [my wife] and I own it and love it because of it's feel in the woods. And we recognize biodiversity as being part of that, but it's not the day to day feeling. The day to day feeling is 'oh did you know that the pine fell down up there,' or 'did you hear the red eyed vireo singing,' or 'did you see the broad winged hawk nest?' That kind of thing. This is that stretch where this was sort of dense mature sugar maple and cherry and ash, up to the top of the hill, and a lot of it blew down in that event. Still working on stuff, some more logs to lug. general relational satisfaction Uh, cuz like I told you, it's the center of life [laugh], for me. It's why I'm so stuck here. Cuz I don't know of any place else that I love as much as this pond. It's um, it's just a good place to be. There's lots to see. Lot's to learn about. We're kind of stuck in the middle of the lily pads, I'm paddling really slowly because there's just enough friction so it slows us down a little bit. And, one of the things I'm noticing is that there's been something in the pond, probably a muskrat, because we don't have beavers right now, who's been eating some water li… some of the water lily roots, so you see long stems and leaves just floating loose. general relational satisfaction Well, it's one of those places I think that, um [pause] exemplifies an opportunity that we have, or not exemplifies, but embodies an opportunity. It's an opportunity to, you know, let nature be the infrastructure here. Let nature manage herself here. Let, you know, ah, let nature, ah, enjoy the quietude of the remoteness of this place. I guess -I guess that's it. You know, that doesn't say someone couldn't come here, much as we're doing today. But, I mean, for this to suddenly be developed with loop trails, and all this and that, would ruin it. You know, those guys [motioning to the herons] wouldn't like, be happy with it. [little chuckle]. They're wondering what we're doin'. [another chuckle]. I've never seen that. Never. But then, I've never seen two lodges. general relational satisfaction This little spot here doesn't look that special, you know, a few beech and sugar maple and there's a black cherry in here somewhere. When [my wife] and I first came here and we were thinking about -friends owned the property and let us know that they were going to leave and wanted to know if we were interested. And when we first came here and I think [my wife's] first reaction was when she drove down the road was something like 'no way in hell am I going to live here,' and then we came out and this little patch was one of the first places we walked in the woods and it was covered in spring beauty and we both said 'yup, we want to live here.' And we bought it. We bought it for the spring beauty, not for the road. general relational satisfaction So um, I can't think of any other thing I want to say about that except the white tail deer is such an awesome animal. You know, just the, the um, the will to survive. And the um, the challenge to even see them in the woods while you're hunting. Um, they're just such a smart animal. So. general relational satisfaction Um, I've seen hawk. There's a hawk that lives here, I haven't seen him this fall, and I know he's the same hawk, but he hangs out on these powerlines year round. And he's been in my, people that live in my development have seen him too, but it's kind of cool to know a hawk lives here year round and he's been hanging out for three or four years. So those are kind of cool things. general relational satisfaction I mean, that's a great, if you take time, you know that's why my greatest sadness is I don't spend enough time up here. If you take time to wander around you just see all kinds of things. general relational satisfaction Um, well, it's, it's what's really special is the wonderful vernal pool. I mean it is deafening when you come near here. But what's interesting about the frogs making all their noise: you get within about 200 feet, they all stop. I mean, one must see you and tells everybody [laugh]! general relational satisfaction Um, there's just something about it, um, you know, maybe because it's a flat spot with lots of pretty trees and stuff. Maybe because it's got the ditch, so to speak, the wetlands and so forth behind it. Um, but we always just find peaceful. And maybe because it's almost pure hemlock. And I don't know why that would make me happy [laugh] but… And it seems to be, you know, another healthy place. Hey, look at that, a purple mushroom. general relational satisfaction And mostly in the fall, not so much in the spring I don't know why, not so much in the spring but in the fall that can literally have 75% of the surface area covered with canada geese. And it's awesome hearing them come in. Early morning down there talking about "is it time to take off yet, or not. Or did you get enough to eat? Or wake up, damnit, we gotta get moving," or who knows. general relational satisfaction They'll use that, but if they can, my research has taught me that they do a lot of precision jumping, and vertical precision jumping from ledge to ledge, catwalks, jump. And they get to a place where nothing can get to. So they're safe. They're safe from their enemies, which include coyotes and fishers, primarily. Dogs and people, secondarily. So if they can get to a place like that, in the winter, when it's 35 below, facing the south-southwest, the sun can warm them, save energy. They're not gonna hunt under conditions like that. They can't. So the best way to save energy is not use it. But to do so and be safe, they've gotta get in a habitat where they're 1) safe, and 2) because they're cats, comfortable [chuckles]. You know.
[chuckles] general relational satisfaction The best way to see otters and take their pictures, even, ah, is, ah, get in a maze of beaver flowages and slow-moving beav--streams that beavers are bank-beavering [??] within. Ah, as well as maybe creating ponded habitats in parts of them. And you can just float along in a canoe and become part of the landscape. You could even drape some foliage over the bow, and wear camo, and on and on. And, what you'll see, if you're still enough, and you're playing the wind right --and I always carry a lighter, 'cause I can light the flame, and if the wind is coming to me, the flames coming to me, I'm good, but if ...[mumbles, bla bla bla]. But I watched a mother the other day repeatedly going out into the water, followed by her three youngsters. And she would herd fish into the shallows, into the rocky shallows, and catch fish. And those kids were saying, 'oh, is that how it's done?' It was really cool. [laughs]. Yeah.
My hope is that this place can be a place of, you know, the forest here can be healthy. You know and at least relatively free to pursue you know mostly natural processes of forest development, free of many of the sort of interfering factors created by humans like invasive species, and like development, fragmentation. And you know that the remnants of, or the legacy of the land use history of this place, yeah I just want I just want, I don't care if the forest is valuable or producing anything very valuable. I would like it to produce something because I think the production of forest resources is really important on a broader scale but I don't care if the forest is valuable, I just want it to be healthy, and just to be able to provide habitat and do all the important services that forests provide for us behind the scenes. That would be just my goal. I don't think it has to do anything for me really. I just want it to be healthy. Yeah I'm, there's just so many scary things coming down the pike for forests. Invasive species continue to be an issue. Deer browse here is an enormous issue that if unattenuated will just get worse. And really negatively impact all these other things, parts of what I'm trying to do. Terrified of development and that someday after I'm gone that this place will will be developed and subdivided in just become like every other developed place on Earth. Terrified of some of the invasive diseases that we have, especially in the case of this place, especially like hemlock woolly adelgid and oak wilt. Because if we like the hemlock here has already been basically clear-cut, that there's a few of them and if we but I think it will be increasingly a part of this forest and then oak is just if we lost oak and hemlock, and we've got beech bark disease, it would just be really scary. And that stuff that I feel there's not that much that I can do about it. I'm just hoping that it's either that those problems are either solved or they just never get here. That's that's scares me. I would say also that increasingly I've realized zooming out from this property and just talking about Chittenden County in general, that bad logging, high-grading, just poor logging practices are bad and are scary, but the thing that keeps me up at night is development. Cuz forests can you know over a given enough time forests can recover from bad logging, development's permanent. Loss of forests. Permanent loss of forest land is what keeps me up at night. I would so much rather see a place that was just horribly high-graded, then a place that was developed. They criticize me highly because I'll say to them what if you were that tree and then they like see that's my point you're worshiping the tree and I'm like I am not worshiping the tree I am trying to tell you that if you weren't who you were and you were thus and so, do you think you would have any thoughts or feelings about that? Because my heritage says that is a living being. That, and then that's another whole argument that I've been discriminated against and harassed about. Yeah. Um, there's just something about it, um, you know, maybe because it's a flat spot with lots of pretty trees and stuff. Maybe because it's got the ditch, so to speak, the wetlands and so forth behind it. Um, but we always just find peaceful. And maybe because it's almost pure hemlock. And I don't know why that would make me happy [laugh] but… And it seems to be, you know, another healthy place. Hey, look at that, a purple mushroom. On my property I don't think I destroy nests, because I'm just grazing. And so the cows, I don't think that' s a, that that doesn't really effect, umm, nesting and fledging as much as if I was, back in my dairy farming days where I'd have my equipment and I'd be mowing through these nests and mowing through fawns and stuff, like I used to do. And turkeys. I've cut turkey legs off by mowing, not seeing them and mowing right through. That wasn't, that was not a good thing.
Material from the study's interviews were used by the first author to create outreach material for a local conservation group called the Vermont Alliance for Half-Earth (VAFHE), which can be found at https://arcg.is/uaymH , as well as in Our Better Nature , a book published by VAFHE and other NGO partners.
The Vermont Alliance For Half-Earth is an organization inspired by E. O. Wilson's call to dedicate half the Earth to nature in order to conserve the majority of global biodiversity. VAFHE was a partial sponsor of the first author's graduate studies, and we would like to thank them for their support and kindness. In order to address any potential conflicts of interest, we would like to note that VAFHE has no financial or legal ties to the Half-Earth Project®, and neither organization had any influence over the interview protocol or research outcomes. In recognition of the many ongoing conversations about the Half-Earth idea, we would like to make clear that VAFHE is a group of Vermont residents unaffiliated with the Half-Earth Project® who are trying to apply the global goal of biodiversity conservation to their local ecological and social context. The methods of conservation they promote include a mixture of protected and shared landscapes guided by regional conservation science, community values, and participatory governance.